Forty Year of Surety Bonding: A Look Back

Rancho Mesa President Dave Garcia and Matt Gaynor, Director of Surety look back on Matt’s career in the surety business and how it has evolved over the last 40 years, as he prepares for his upcoming retirement.

Dave Garcia: Hi, this is Dave Garcia. You're listening to Rancho Mesa’s StudioOne™ podcast where each week we break down complex insurance and safety topics to help your businesses thrive.

Today I'll be joined by Matt Gaynor who's our Director of Surety with Rancho Mesa. We're going to take a look back at Matt's career in the surety business and how it's evolved over the last 40 years as he prepares for his upcoming retirement in June.

Matt, I still can't believe you're retiring, but welcome to the show.

Matt Gaynor: Always great to be in the studio, Dave.

DG: Well, okay, Matt, let's go back. Let's wind the clock back and tell our listeners a little bit about how you got started in surety.

MG: So I worked in accounting for Merrill Lynch out of college and a friend I'd previously worked with started telling me about a career that involved both accounting and construction. So I joined Reliance Surety at their home office in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania in 1986 as a trainee.

DG: Wow, 1986, that's the year before I started in insurance, so you've got me by a year. So when you look back at when you first started in 1986, what are some of the things you observed about the way things were done back then?

MG: Well, first off, I started working in a company reading manuals, and for the first maybe four to six weeks, you're reading these boring insurance manuals and one other trainee that started with me we found out had narcolepsy.

DG: Oh my gosh.

MG: And he would fall asleep like after an hour reading so after a couple weeks they had to let him go because they said you know you can't really do this.

DG: No matter how much coffee he had right?

MG: No it wouldn't change it.

The next thing there was the biggest thing is communication. We only had a landline at our desk which for today's people that have cell phones and all they can't even imagine that and there was no voicemail. So if we got a call from our contractor client or from one of our branches, you just had a message at your desk that said, "Call this person back."

And there was no voicemail that said, "Here's what we want to talk about,” or any of that. So that's really been a big change.

DG: I can relate to that. I remember, you go out for a meeting, you come back in, you've got all these little notes on your desk of who phoned and what the phone call was regarding, and there was just a stack of paper, then you just had to literally dial them back, right, with the rotisserie dial.

MG: That's right, exactly. And you had to remember all these phone numbers, remember, there was no computer to look things up, you had everything written down on a sheet of paper somewhere.

DG: Yeah, you had to have your little business black book, so to speak. What about submissions, Matt? How did those, how have those changed?

MG: Yeah, that segues into how paper trails were created back then. I mean, we got all our mail through the U.S. mail. If you got something, I don't know when Federal Express was even started, but if you got something through Federal Express, it better be pretty important because the company wasn't going to spend the money to send something through Federal Express.

Now, fax machines had just come out. So when you received the fax, again, it had to be a pretty big deal, but the fax would go away from the paper so you had to make a copy right away because you were afraid the ink that came through the fax machine would just disintegrate and you couldn't read it in a few days. So that was a big change just the paper.

So think of that, it would take five days, six days for the submission to come through the mail and then you took a week to underwrite it. So it would take two weeks, which nowadays that's 30 minutes.

DG: Right, exactly. You know, I used to work for Xerox back before I was in the insurance industry and I sold those fax machines that had the disappearing ink. So yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about. How did it work on your files?

MG: Yep, so everything was done by hand. So when we would get the information in, you had to do a work in progress computation and you had to print it out very carefully because someone else had to read it. So they would just pick up the paper file and read it and look at your notes there. Now the year–end summaries we recorded on Dictaphone and a funny story with that was the first time I had to do one, my boss said, "Hey, go in a separate office and do this because you're going to feel really weird talking into this machine."

So the lady who typed up my first submission is laughing and laughing as she's reading it because I'd said like, start a sentence, I'd say, "Oh, damnit,” or something, and she'd just be like, “Oh, you made another mistake.”

So it was very overwhelming to record something on a Dictaphone.

DG: Yeah, I don't think people today can appreciate that. You know, they don't, it's so easy now to tape and record and delete and whatever. But back in the day, you know, you're talking into like a little cassette recorder kind of thing with a mic, and then you hand that little cassette to somebody and then they listen to it and type it. I mean, that turnaround time was immense.

MG: The amazing speed that she could type that at too, it was as she was hearing words, she's typing. I was overwhelmed by it.

DG: Well, let's talk about some of the softer side, paychecks, vacations, sick days. We're two older guys, so it's different today, but how was it back then for you, Matt?

MG: So every second Friday, around three o'clock, they handed you a paper paycheck and they did us a favor because there might have been like four or five banks. We were on floor 20, like downstairs either in the bottom of our building or another building because we were in central Philadelphia. So they would let us go down and cash it. So there was no direct deposit or any of that. So you'd say like, "Give me 15 or 20 dollars of cash and put the rest of this into our account."

That would pay all the bills and from that, so that was kind of weird. Vacation was two weeks until I got five years with the company, so you only had two weeks. And of course, if you couldn't make it like one time, we had a guy that was going to install a carpet at our house, so I had to take the day off. And he calls me 10 o'clock and says, "I cut my finger. I can't come."

Well, I'd already taken the day, so you lose that day. You didn't like get it back. But the other thing was sick days, which is really funny because you only got three and you really had to sound sick because you had to call your boss at around seven in the morning or eight o'clock and say, “Hey I feel bad today.”

So you had to really sound sick because he was on the other end saying, like, “Are you really sick or not?”

But that came to pass because when I worked for another company for ten years I only had one sick day in ten years with that company. Well back then you just came into work if you were a little bit sick.

DG: Yeah right yeah I know it was a different world for sure very different. Absolutely. What about bond premium rates and dress codes and things like that?

MG: So the irony is over 40 years, bond premium rates really haven't changed that much. It's an archaic system where there's a preferred rate, there's a standard rate, and then there's a higher rate. But you would think it would go to a flat rate like 1% or 2% or whatever, but they've never done that over the years.

So it's all filed by state, which I assume insurance rates are also filed that way. But you had a manual that was handed to you and it had every state in there and it had all these rates. And to this day, I still have that manual.

DG: Really?

MG: Yes. And it describes just about all the different bonds. So I probably could give you the rate for like 5,000 bonds from that one little manual. Yeah, it's kind of crazy.

DG: Let's talk about dress codes 'cause it certainly has changed from the time I started working to now, how about you?

MG: Yeah, there was no casual Fridays for anything, no such thing. You had to wear a suit and tie, sport coat and tie at least. So when I got my first job, I went to, I think probably whatever was Men's Warehouse back then, bought a couple sport coats, a couple ties, and maybe two suits, and then you just had to keep them clean.

But a funny story with that was I used to iron all my shirts, and they had to spray starch that you could put on, but I decided one time, I’m going to take it to the dry-cleaners. And I said, "Do extra starch."

And the lady looked at me like, "Are you sure?"

And I got that back. I felt like I was putting cardboard on my face.

DG: Yeah, exactly.

MG: But you had to prepare every morning and you had to look decent. You couldn't go in looking sloppy or anything. Because think of it, any day you could be meeting a new account, so you had to make sure you made a great impression on them from the first time.

DG: And it was just common practice back then, you know, it's, I know in my Xerox days, it was a uniform, you know, blue suit, gray suit, white shirt, blue shirt, red tie, blue tie, that was your options. And, but everybody, you know, yeah, okay, you know, just it kind of shifted your mentality too. I don't know if you felt the same, but you know, when I put that suit on every morning, I went from being a dad or whatever to being a business person, and it just kind of shifted your perspective a little bit. So a little harder now, don't you think, Matt, with everybody's walking around with golf shirts on, at least we haven't gone to shorts in the office, right?

MG: Right, yeah, that would be crazy.

DG: But were you in the Pittsburgh branch at all?

MG: Yeah, so when I started at Reliance, after three years, they wanted you in the home office, they wanted you to go to a branch. So they offered us Louisville, Orlando or Pittsburgh and Pittsburgh was a six-hour drive and we just had our second daughter. So we decided on that. A lot of people said why not go to Orlando because Disney World, you know, it would be fun there and I went to visit the Louisville branch a great branch but again, we thought just being six hours away was close enough yet far enough to be away so went to the Pittsburgh branch and my manager said, “Hey if you want to get out of the office, you got to play golf.”

So that's where I really started picking up golf.

DG: Okay.

MG: Yeah, so I would play in a different tournament, just say the AGC or whatever they had. And I really, as you got it, like you get bitten by the bug and you want to improve and you want to get better. So those three years, I really played a bunch of golf.

And the other story that sticks out in that branch was they gave you a company car after like a year in the branch and they gave me this Chrysler with this terrible color, and my wife Donna says to me, like, "Turn that in, I don't want you driving that."

And I'm like, "Donna, I'm just happy to have a car."

Like, I'm not going to tell them I don't want this color or anything like that, no. But the good part was when I went back to the home office, they gave me a stipend to buy a car, because they said, "Okay, you had a company car,” and you could use it for your personal time, too. You didn’t just use it for work time. So it was a big positive for working for the company.

DG: Sure. How have some of the other things changed, Matt, like the bond reporting initiatives and things like that?

MG: Yeah. So nowadays, again, we can make a copy on a computer and it's no problem. But back then, they had these carbon pages. So our administrative assistant would take three pages and stick these carbon, which if you got on your fingers, it was all messy and all. So she had to do it exactly. And if she made a mistake, she could probably use some whiteout to fix it, but making two mistakes, they just threw it out and started over again. So it was a lot of work just to, because one copy was for the agent, one was for the home office and one was for the branch.  So they had to have these copies here, you know, so that's the way they did it.

DG: I know. It's just crazy to think back like, but that's how it was. It wasn't antiquated at the time. And then did you become a senior contract underwriter at some point?

MG: Yeah. So then when I went back to the home office, one of the big positives was that I was trained with five other people. We all started together and I was the only one that accepted the three year transfer to a branch. So when I came in, I came in as a senior contractor over all them. So because they didn't get that branch training, which was important because you had to deal with contractors and agents directly so it really boosted your career from that.

But when I got back, I had three branches that I was in charge of and one funny story was we were down at Alabama meeting a road contractor and they were like all excited to do the home office guys coming in to meet me. So they baked a cake for me. So we're sitting there and they gave us these little bottles of coke because back then, you know, down in Birmingham…

DG: Coca-Cola, right.

MG: Yeah, right, yeah, yeah, Coca-Cola. And they give us a piece of cake and it was like really warm and all that. And they expected that by me eating that, I would approve a bigger line of credit for them and all that, but yeah, they went out of their way to really, the hospitality was great, but it just goes to say that they did, you know, extra work just to try to get us to like

DG: And they thought a cake and a Coke were going to…

MG: That a cake and a Coke, we're going to prove that job. I might have approved that job but it wouldn't have been because of the cake.

DG: Exactly right. Well, how did you, when did you make your change from the company side to the agency side, then how did you find your way to us here at Rancho Mesa?

MG: Yes, so after being in a branch and getting to deal with agents and contractors directly, it was tough to go to the home office and sit behind a desk. So after probably two and a half years of that, I decided, let's go to the agency side and try something new. So I had two stints, one company, 10 years, one seven. And then in 2011, I joined Rancho Mesa’s surety operations.

And it was a blank slate because as you know, we didn't have an operation at that time. And you kind of said, “Hey, here's the keys.”

DG: Yeah, it was a complete gut feel and faith, you know, because we know we wanted to add that such a vital side of our business, but we for years never found the right person to lead it. And then when we met you, we're like, okay, this is the person that can take us from zero to where we are today.

So, let me stop now and just say thank you for those wonderful 14 years, but talk a little bit about how it's changed over that time for you.

MG: Yeah, so we might've had like five little accounts but fortunately through your insurance operations you were able to introduce me to a lot of your current clients and they had a need for bonding so it was a great fit but over that 14 years our department's grown to five employees six if you count me but we have three producers and we have two people that do the data work for us.

We have over 150 surety clients that do like decent size bonds but another 100 that might need a bond each year like a license permit or a contractor's license bond or whatever so in theory we have over 250 surety clients. During that time our smallest bond—because bonds are all over the place—was we issued a thousand-dollar bond and the minimum premium is a hundred dollars but we've also issued a 60-million-dollar bond so they're all over.

DG: Yeah, that's a big range right there.

MG: Yeah, it is right.

DG: Yeah. Do we just do work in California or do we do bonding in some of the other states?

MG: So we're licensed, as you know, in 50 states. We've done bonds in 15 states, but we've also done bonds in Canada and Guam. Now, when I say done bonds, like in Guam, we're not allowed to issue bonds. You actually have to have a relationship with an agency over there. And through the years we've just developed that and we work with them and they're happy to help us with that.

DG: So what do you think are some of the most significant things that have changed in the industry?

MG: Yeah. So speed of transaction, that's got to be the top thing. As I previously mentioned, we didn't have computers and every transaction involved paper. But today, if I need an updated financial statement, I can call our contractor or email them, and within 15 minutes, they can put something together. In 1986, that would take several days, but I was just thinking today, I asked someone for their bank statement, and they just went into their Bank of America, whatever, and pushed a button and sent me something. Well, back then, they would have had to call their bank, stop, drove over, got there, and then got actually a copy of a statement, and would have had it figured away either. They could have faxed it, but probably would have mailed it to me. So that's kind of, yeah. So what we can do nowadays is so much quicker, which is sometimes good and sometimes bad.

Because sometimes, like we just did a bond yesterday, for a bid today, and we had one day to get it together. So we had to do first overnight Federal Express to get it there by the time so they could deliver it. Now, we don't complain about that. I'm just trying to get across how it's changed in this environment.

DG: You know, it's changed and expectations have changed, right? We live in a society now where they want it now. You know, they don't want to wait. Nobody wants to wait for anything. And we adapt as an agency, as a surety department. We just adapt. We use technology to try to help us with that. But when there's guys like you and I that remember pads of paper and pencils and checking the mail for different things, it's completely different today than it was. Not that it's bad. It's probably better. But it's just something that the new people to the industry never knew what it used to be like. So they're a little bit spoiled, right, Matt?

MG: Right, yeah.

DG: Yeah, they don't know why that's old timers you just have to go through.

MG: That's right.

DG: So what would you tell someone who's just starting their career about working in surety?

MG: Yeah, I would say it's a great industry to be involved with. I mean, the work involves finance, reading contracts, and a basic understanding construction because I know a little bit about what our clients do, but I would never be able to explain or do what they do.

Most important are the relationships with our contractor clients and our surety partners. I mean, over the 40 years, I developed lifelong friendships with a lot of the people I've worked you know, some contractors, I would invite them to my daughter's wedding. I mean, we just get so close because you learn so much about them and you forge a great relationship. So it's an incredible industry to be part of.

DG: Yeah, well, hats off to you, Matt, because you're a big part of developing those relationships. You're approachable, you're knowledgeable, you're timely. So I think those people, like the trust in you allows for those deep friendships to occur. So congratulations to you, congratulations.

Everybody listening. I've tried to talk Matt into hybrid retirement, which I'm not a big hybrid guy, but I was hoping that would just stay, but he's not, he's really ready for retirement, so he'll be retiring June the 30th of this year, but he's not leaving, he'll be in town, he'll be here, I'm sure we'll get out and play around the golf, but Matt, I just want to thank you, not just for today, but for those 14 wonderful years and your guidance and counsel that you provided me to help grow Rancho Mesa.

So Matt, thanks for joining me today in StudioOne.

MG: Yeah, thanks Dave. I appreciate you hosting and I enjoyed it.

DG: Thanks everyone for tuning in to our latest episode produced by StudioOne. If you enjoyed what you heard, please share this episode and subscribe. For more insights like this, visit us at RanchoMesa.com and subscribe to our weekly newsletter. Thank you.